Posts by Disillusioned JW

208

How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?

by psyco in

i remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.

thanks..

Disillusioned JW

Page 4 of this topic thread made claims of a translation of VAT4956. For comparison, note that regarding the translation of VAT4956 https://books.google.com/books?id=ETx7DQAAQBAJ&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=translation+from+German+to+English+of+VAT4956&source=bl&ots=IaXsm_rUcm&sig=ACfU3U3CtNxLJYuuZy5M-09xQjszOV1Lkw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiat4SNoqb9AhWkFFkFHfJVDHgQ6AF6BAgBEAE mentions some of those who translated it.

Regarding comments about servitude versus exile, which have been made in this topic forum, I ask where did the servitude of Jews to Babylon take place? Did it take place in Judah or did it take it place in Babylon, or did it take place in both locations, or did it take place elsewhere? I see no contradiction when people say the servitude of Jews to Babylon took place in Babylon. Likewise I see no contradiction when people say the servitude of Jews to Babylon took place in Judah. I think the servitude to Babylon took place in both locations. However, I have not done much reading about this in the Bible, and my memory of what I read about it is weak. I do know that the book of Daniel (whether historical or not) makes the claim of Daniel being in servitude to the king of Babylon while in Babylon. I also know that the King of Babylon appointed a Jew to be king in Jerusalem (before Jerusalem was destroyed) and thus that particular king in Jerusalem served the king of Babylon and thus was in servitude to Babylon. Note that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity says the following.

"In the fourth year of Nebuchadnezzar II's reign, Jehoiakim refused to pay further tribute, which led to another siege of the city in Nebuchadnezzar II's seventh year (598/597 BCE) that culminated in the death of Jehoiakim and the exile to Babylonia of his successor Jeconiah, his court, and many others; Jeconiah's successor Zedekiah and others were exiled when Nebuchadnezzar II destroyed Jerusalem in his 18th year (587 BCE), and a later deportation occurred in Nebuchadnezzar II's 23rd year (582 BCE). However, the dates, numbers of deportations, and numbers of deportees vary in the several biblical accounts.

.... The city fell on 2 Adar (March 16) 597 BCE,[11] and Nebuchadnezzar pillaged Jerusalem and its Temple and took Jeconiah, his court and other prominent citizens (including the prophet Ezekiel) back to Babylon.[12] Jehoiakim's uncle Zedekiah was appointed king in his place, but the exiles in Babylon continued to consider Jeconiah as their Exilarch, or rightful ruler."

Note that a deportation to Babylon and exile in Babylon for some began in 597 BCE, and note that 597 BCE to 537 BCE is 60 years, and that 60 years is half way in length between 50 years (which many non-Jws claim is the length of the exile) and 70 years (which many JWs claim was the length of the exile). also note that were multiple deportations.

Regarding the claim (made in this topic thread) that "... that the Land of Judah was desolate during the Exile of 70 years ..." the above mentioned Wikipedia article says the following. "Archaeological studies have revealed that, although the city of Jerusalem was utterly destroyed, other parts of Judah continued to be inhabited during the period of the exile." Note that modern science conclusively shows that parts of Judah were inhabited during the exile.

26

Another interesting comment made by a PIMI JW

by joe134cd in

i thought i’d shear this with you good people.

the cognitive dissonance is just breath taking.

i over heard this comment at a relatives family dinner the other night.

Disillusioned JW

In hindsight, it would have been better for me if I had never been invited (or appointed) to receive so-called privileges in the congregation, since I would have been less involved with the religion and thus maybe out of the religion much sooner, or maybe even never became baptized into the religion. If had begun having a beard by eighth grade (and thus exercised more of an independent attitude, including of independent thinking), then I probably would never have been: allowed to become baptized (or possibly never allowed to become baptized), passing the microphones down the isles, an assistant in the sound department, in charge of the sound department, an assistant of the magazine counter, in charge of the magazine counter, an assistant of the literature counter/department, in charge of the literature department, assigned #4 talks (I became assigned those talks right after I became baptized), a ministerial servant, an auxiliary pioneer, a regular pioneer, assigned public talks, assigned service meeting talks, an attendant at circuit assemblies, an attendant at special assemblies, an attendant at district conventions, asked to give a prayer to the congregation, asked to give a prayer to the book study group, asked to conduct a meeting of field service, asked to conduct a book study meeting, asked to read paragraphs out loud at book study meetings, asked to read paragraphs at loud at congregational Watchtower study meetings, an attendant passing the emblems of the Memorial, and possibly assigned other JW responsibilities.

If I never had any of the possible responsibilities, then I would have had more time to socialize before and after congregational meetings, and I would have had more free time to do what I really wanted to do.

14

JW's: Research your beliefs..................

by BoogerMan in

w59 8/1 p. 458 par.

17-18 par.

w08 4/15 p. 6 par.

Disillusioned JW

Correction: Where I said "... being named to a stake ..." I meant to say "... being nailed to a stake ...".

14

JW's: Research your beliefs..................

by BoogerMan in

w59 8/1 p. 458 par.

17-18 par.

w08 4/15 p. 6 par.

Disillusioned JW

It is not just the Bible Stories book depicting only one nail being used in Jesus' hands. As far as I recall, all of the WT's depictions of Jesus being named to a stake (of the kind lacking a cross beam to support the body) show only one nail driven through the hands. Many of the illustrations show a slanted board under the feet (with one only nail going through the feet) providing some degree of support to the body - and thus eliminating the need for more than one nail being needed in the hands for support of the body.

I'm not aware of the WT ever saying (at least during the years I was an active JW) that multiple nails through the hands were needed to support the body weight of Jesus. When I talked to a JW elder about the reference to nails in Gospel accredited to John, the elder told me it says "nails" because a nail was also used for the feet in addition to a nail for being used for the hands. But I didn't accept his explanation since the verse doesn't say "in his hands and feet the print of the nails" but instead says "in his hands the print of the nails". Note that John 20:25 (1984 NWt) says "... Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side ...". That verse says nothing about the feet and thus nothing about the print of nails (or a nail) in the feet.

48

No more public WT & Awake?

by mikeflood in

have you guys noticed, this year 2023 no more public edition magazines...i wonder how they are gonna spin that fact.

Disillusioned JW

Phizzy how many differences have you seen between the original magazines and their replacements in the bound volumes? I have only seen one difference (other than that the bound ones excluded the advertising which was on the back cover). Where can we find documentation of the alleged changes?

48

No more public WT & Awake?

by mikeflood in

have you guys noticed, this year 2023 no more public edition magazines...i wonder how they are gonna spin that fact.

Disillusioned JW

What is the source for paraphrase of the words of GB Mark Sanderson? What is the source for news/claim of no more public issues of "no more public edition magazines"?

After typing the above I did a web search and found a comment at https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/yek43h/no_more_public_edition_watchtower_and_awake_mags/ .

Update: I notice one comment posted at the above reddit page says the following. "Branch letter a couple months ago said only one WT and Awake will be released for 2023 (in Nov/Dec). They’re really cutting costs (nobody reads them anyway), we all know where the money is going…"

smiddy3, sadly in my case, the Awake! magazines from the late 1970s - very early 1980s contributed to me deciding to get baptized as a JW in the very early 1980s. That is because they contained articles which were highly critical of biological evolution and carbon dating (and tree ring dating), causing me to greatly question those matters rather than agreeing that scientists were right on those matters. Furthermore, the Awake! and the Watchtower had articles which made me very scared to read articles which promoted evolution and the accuracy of radiometric dating, and of literature promoting atheism (and of criticisms of the Bible), for they made me think I might get deceived by reading such and thus loose salvation.

From the late 1970s through around 2008 the Awake! magazine was far more interesting to me to read than the Watchtower magazine, since the Awake! contained articles on science.

14

JW's: Research your beliefs..................

by BoogerMan in

w59 8/1 p. 458 par.

17-18 par.

w08 4/15 p. 6 par.

Disillusioned JW

Thanks for your comments joe134cd.

I was raised from infancy by JW parents (and my grandparents were also JWs while I was an infant and onward, till they died). [I was born prior to 1970.] I had been convinced (without doubts) of the WT's "Starous / Stake thing" view probably until at least the mid 1990s and possibly even until about 2000 or 2005. It probably wasn't until after around 2005 that I thought the that Jesus probably died on a cross instead of a stake.The change in my view was due to me watching documentary programs on TV which talked about the method of the execution of Jesus, and of me reading evangelical Christian criticisms (online and in books) of the WT's position about Starous. A key point for me was the gospel attributed to John saying imprint of the "nails" instead of "nail" in Jesus' hands.

170

Staying in physically for all the benefits

by Indoubtbigtime in

i wonder how many are like me staying pimo for the great association and gathering etc.

also find it very interesting having a front row seat watching the collapse of borg.. im not wasting any more time or money on anything i don’t want to do like preaching and mostly just go on zoom .

there is nothing i want to do that would be considered disfellowshiping sin, i’m married and want to live by bible principles but i have serious doubts that the gb were chosen by god and are his one and only spokesmen on earth.

Disillusioned JW

For those who reject the fact that humans landed on the moon, despite believing in the WT's teachings, today I have found another WT publication which says humans went to the moon. It is the booklet called "The Time for True Submission to God" (copyright 1982). On page 36 in paragraph one it says the following. 'Today, science is highly thought of. Scientists have sent men to the moon. They have made life more comfortable for some. .. Hence, men tend to look down on things that they feel are not "scientific." '

After quoting a biblical verse about the earth hanging "upon nothing" and a biblical verse about the "circle of the earth" the same booklet on page 37 in paragraph 4 says the following. "Does that sound unscientific to you? Or is that not exactly what the American and Russian astronauts see when they venture into outer space in their rocket ships? How could people thousands of years ago have known that the earth was hanging in empty space unless God himself had revealed it to them?"

Notice that the WT uses what astronauts saw in space far from the Earth, to try to prove a teaching of the Bible (in support of the WT's claim of the Bible being divinely inspired). If one denies that people saw such then you remove that argument which has been used in support of a biblical teaching. However divine inspiration was not needed, for some philosopher scientists in ancient times knew that the Earth was round with no visible support in space, in part because of reasoning upon observations of curvature of the shadow cast upon the Moon by the Earth.

14

JW's: Research your beliefs..................

by BoogerMan in

w59 8/1 p. 458 par.

17-18 par.

w08 4/15 p. 6 par.

Disillusioned JW

I was not making the point that the Bible excluded a number of scientific facts. Instead the point I was alluding to is that modern day scientific findings disprove a number of the Bible's claims, including the specific claims I listed in my first post of this topic thread. In other words, modern science combined with rational reasoning shows that the Bible is completely wrong in some of what it teaches (and thus not the word of a truthful all-knowing God). I thought that if people investigated the specific claims of the Bible (the ones I listed in my first post) using modern scientific findings, some of those people would discover such for themselves. For me that is very significant, and when I discovered some of scientific findings pertaining to those claims of the Bible I ceased believing in the Bible as being the inspired word of Jehovah/Yahweh God, and thus I also ceased believing in the existence of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, and the supernatural (including Satan the Devil, angels, demons, resurrections of the dead, and eternal life for humans).

On a different topic consider the following.

Today I found something fascinating to me as a result of me researching "sm pp. 17-18 par. 8" of the opening post. I found out that "sm" is the booklet called "The Time for True Submission to God". After reading (in my copy of the booklet) what the opening post quoted from that booklet I browsed the book and found a quote on page 30 from An Appendix to The Companion Bible. That quote said that the Jesus Christ was "... put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed at any angle." Since I know that the WT often mishandles quotes and since numerous scholarly sources say that Jesus was most likely put to death onto a stake which had a cross beam (and thus was a cross), I wondered if the quote by the WT of The Companion Bible was misleading. I then searched online for a full quote of The Companion Bible and discovered that the quote is not misleading. I found the fuller quote at https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/92381/facts-on-crucifixion-stauros-torture-stake?page=14 in a post made by abelElElyon from 14 years ago. Ideally I should also track down an actual copy of The Companion Bible and read it directly to see if says such, but since that will take some considerable time and effort to do such, for now the quote I found will suffice for me.

However, page 15 of the above mentioned topic thread has a post which says in part the following. "The problem is that the classical Greek hadn't been spoken for centuries by the time of Jesus. The bible is written in koine Greek [which is Hellenistic]. Stauros [in koine Greek] means 1]an upright stake with a cross beam above it.2] two intersecting beams of equal length, or 3] a vertical stake."

It should also be noted that according to http://jesusisyhwh.blogspot.com/2008/03/ The Companion Bible was published in 1885 and thus might be up to date in its understanding on what the Bible says Jesus was nailed to. But https://www.christianbook.com/kjv-companion-bible-genuine-leather-black/9780825422379/pd/542240X gives a different date for the first edition of The Companion Bible for it says the following. "The Companion Bible by Bullinger was released in six parts, beginning in 1910, and Bullinger's identity as author of the notes and editor was purposely left off the title page." https://www.logos.com/product/38911/the-companion-bible says the following. "The Companion Bible has been a trusted resource for personal Bible study for almost a century. Originally published in six parts from 1909 to 1922, this classic study Bible, in its print edition, featured a two-column format, with Scripture on the left and notes on the right, covering Genesis through Revelation."

It wasn't until after 1885 that scholars discovered (due to fining numerous more manuscripts in Greek) that the Greek of the Bible (koine Greek) was actually the very common Greek of the people in the first century. It had differences from the classical Greek. See https://christianpublishinghouse.co/2019/07/22/fragments-of-truth-500-thousand-papyrus-texts-were-accidentally-discovered-in-egypt/ . As a result, it might still be likely that the WT is wrong in teaching that Jesus was not nailed upon a cross (an upright pole with a cross beam).

14

JW's: Research your beliefs..................

by BoogerMan in

w59 8/1 p. 458 par.

17-18 par.

w08 4/15 p. 6 par.

Disillusioned JW

People should also test the Bible against itself, to see if it contradicts itself. If the person finds such contradictions the person should then ask how reliable is the Bible and the person should ask how confident is he/she of the correctness of some specific claims made by parts of the Bible.